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Do You Care What Happens With Briscoe Field?

Do you think the potential privatization or commercialization of Briscoe Field will have any impact on your quality of life?

The question of whether or not Briscoe Field should be privatized and/or commercialized has divided Gwinnett County for well over a year now.

The Gwinnett County Board of Commissioners has held a , met with ,  and formed a , yet the controversy continues.

Last week, the group Citizens for a Better Gwinnett (C4BG) launched an online petition in an effort to . C4BG posted the following statement on the petition website:

It is our belief that the only profitable reason for any company to bid for the privatization of Briscoe Field would be to also eventually schedule passenger aviation at Briscoe Field which will devastate home values in the Lawrenceville area. The expansion will affect as many as 158,139 residents, within five miles of Briscoe.

Noise will continually interrupt the education of children at 40 area schools, not to mention the impact on the enjoyment of our homes and outdoor activities.  Traffic on the already over-capacity roadways (Hwy 316, Hwy 20, & secondary roads) around Briscoe will be gridlocked. Our long-term health will be affected by jet fuel fallout, which is listed by the EPA as a primary source of benzene.  The EPA classifies benzene as a Class A carcinogenic, which indicates it is a chemical known to cause cancer in humans.

 

Are you concerned about the potential commercialization of Briscoe Field? Do you feel opponents' concerns are legitimate? Do you currently live in the Briscoe Field flight path? Is this an issue with which those in the Dacula area should be concerned? Tell us in the comments.

David Brawner February 23, 2012 at 01:36 AM
I don't care if it is privatized or not. I would like to see it commercialized and have limited commercial flight in and out. I fly several time a month and it is a very long drive from Dacula to Hartsfield.
R++ One of the Famous Dacula Crew February 23, 2012 at 04:00 AM
David while we all sympathize on your interpretation of the commute time, please consider moving closer to Jackson Hartfield. There are numerous residential properties available right now, at very good rates if not a steal, that surely one is suitable and may even be on an existing MARTA line to boot. Simply put, you don't fly enough trips at several a month to make the proposal pay in the end. And that simple fact that Propeller's proposal has never been implemented anywhere before makes it better than a 50/50 chance that your fellow taxpayers in Gwinnett will be stuck with a VERY BIG tab for a VERY LONG time. Would you personally get surgery from a physician/surgeon that has NEVER performed an operation before?
David Brawner February 23, 2012 at 04:18 AM
I am sure that I am not alone in making many trips to Hartsfield a month. I am sure there was a time in the past when you had never done anything. And one more thing, I like the sound of planes, prop and jet.
R++ One of the Famous Dacula Crew February 23, 2012 at 05:08 AM
David you may enjoy jet traffic and a location closer to Hartsfield would meet that need for you ( and possibly others) without exposing other county residents that don't enjoy the prospect themselves. Yes we all start out at one point, but rarely are backed / cosigned in such a grand project, with such a large sum of tax payer funds at stake in that very first endeavor. It would be like going to Gwinnett Braves Stadium, stepping up to the plate for the very first time, against the best Braves pitcher and hitting a homer off their best fastball on the First and Only swing you get... Possible yes - odds of success?
David Brawner February 23, 2012 at 05:28 PM
R you used baseball, so will I. Did you know that Babe Ruth struckout 1330 times, 24% of the times he was at bat. The league average was 12%. He hit 714 homeruns during his carrer. Using you line of thinking you would have never let Babe Ruth up to bat.
North Georgia Weather February 23, 2012 at 05:41 PM
And honestly... I wouldn't want him on my team. I would rather have players that are more predictable and consistent. So no, I wouldn't like my chances with him much like I don't like our chances with the airport.
David Brawner February 24, 2012 at 03:09 AM
Wow, the greatest player of his time and you wouldn't want him. FYI - he is number 99 of the all time stickout leaders. http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hitting/histrk1.shtml The top 1000 stickout leaders. Strikeouts All Time Leaders, just the top 10 below Name Strikeouts Rank Reggie Jackson 2,597 1 Jim Thome 2,487 2 Sammy Sosa 2,306 3 Andres Galarraga 2,003 4 Jose Canseco 1,942 5 Willie Stargell 1,936 6 Alex Rodriguez 1,916 7 Mike Cameron 1,901 8 Mike Schmidt 1,883 9 Fred McGriff 1,882 10 There are a lot of great players here who stuckout a LOT more than Babe Ruth. You wouldn't want them either I'm guessing because all you can see if failure. Kinda explains a lot.
David Brawner February 24, 2012 at 03:21 AM
And as for ME moving, I enjoy where I live and will not be going anywhere for a very long time. A few more planes a day in and out aren't going to hurt a bit. I fly into a lot of 1 & 2 gate airports. The locals seem to like the airport. At least the businesses around the airports seem to be doing fine.
Floyd Akridge February 24, 2012 at 05:29 AM
A couple of things... (1) One of the things that is a plus in making the commercialization of Briscoe a success is the sheer volume of flights in/out of Hartsfield. In addition, Atlanta having a widely spread metro population make it seem likely that flights from Briscoe would have a very good chance of success. (2) Noise from Jet traffic is not what most of you think. I've worked literally right next door to the jet traffic at Peachtree-DeKalb airport. Jet traffic there was actually was, to me, surprisingly quiet. (3) For those of you concerned about safety...I ask you to look at a map of where PDK is located and the volume of housing and businesses located VERY close to the airport. (4) I doubt that the affect, if any, on home prices would extend to a 5 mile radius. The climb speeds of the 2nd generation 737's are pretty darn impressive. I'd hazard a guess that at 4 and 5 miles home prices would be affected way way way way way more by normal environmental factors than Briscoe.
North Georgia Weather February 24, 2012 at 11:27 AM
There are too many other factors that I would use to pick a player for my team than home runs, very narrow sighted to me. And yes, that DOES explain a lot.
M.K. OSBORNE February 24, 2012 at 01:57 PM
Some people look at gwinnett and see only dollars , i look at gwinnett and see home , family roots , quality living , because my investment must be for a lifetime .
GregRodgers February 24, 2012 at 02:56 PM
To Mr Akridge....on "A couple of things...." These are not facts you've given....these are your opinions...which really do not hold any weight. We live in a fact driven world... The facts: 1. IMG states....these types of airports have a 100% failure rate based on facts. 2. There is no guarantee that this will bring jobs, but if it does not work will cost taxpayers millions. 3. Its going to cost millions of dollars to make the plan work...where will the money come from. 4. Briscoe was never created commerical flights. 5. If it passes...this will get tied up in litigation for years...(see City of Lawrenceville Mayors comments) 6. The FAA report states Briscoe is not a good field for commerical traffic. These are just a few FACTS....let alone that it is a fact that no matter what I've read the opposition on this issue seems to outweigh any amount of people who support this nonsense. I've read that even in as far as in Roswell, they do not want to see this airport changed. No matter what you say (opinion based not reality based) it would appear that the silent minority are those who wish to plunder the area for monetary gain. With all of the money that it is going to cost, it would also appear to fly in the face of Republican conservative values. Its amazing how the FACTS get pushed aside by our elected officials when there is an underhanded buck to be made.
Floyd Akridge February 24, 2012 at 06:07 PM
Greg...thanks for the reply. To apply the failure rate apples to apples to our situation is not correct. Each instance had it's own set of circumstances and none of them had the combination of existing incredible volumes of landings/takeoffs and a large metropolitian area that could support the use of the airport. The rest of your post answered questions I didn't raise so I will not dissect then . If the Lawrenceville mayor wishes to "tie it up in litigation for years" that's not the fault of the airport but rather of the Lawrenceville Mayor. Amazing how FACTS get twisted isn't it. Your comment about the underhanded buck is FACTless emotionalism and minimizes the remainder of your argument. What I did post was my first hand experience regarding jet noise, safety and the climb rate of the 2nd gen 737's (in response to the 5 mile radius initial statement). I also just realized that I neglected to mention that I am in the landing pattern for East Arrivals for Hartsfield and on some occasions for traffic for Dobbins. (having a C5A fly over your neighborhood at about 2500-3000 is a sight).
R++ One of the Famous Dacula Crew February 24, 2012 at 07:23 PM
"Atlanta having a widely spread metro population make it seem likely that flights from Briscoe would have a VERY GOOD chance of success." Floyd - this was debunked by IMG in two public meetings where phone conferences were held. There is such a "good chance of success" that after several firms with more experience in the industry reviewed the project, the only one to submit a proposal is the one with the LEAST experience. Knowing there will be court challenges drives up the cost side of the equation and that is NOT included in the current cost/benefit analysis sets. Refer to the recent Shared Services issue history for an estimated value of inner governmental disputes. The folks that just love airplane traffic of all types are really are a small percentage of the population and this can be confirmed by any Realtor, just by asking how many requests they get to include a commercial air traffic center as a must or a nice to have vs those who eliminate a location by that criteria. Now if we could just get John Travolta to relocate to Gwinnett.
GregRodgers February 24, 2012 at 07:41 PM
To R...thanks for re-highlighting..."Knowing there will be court challenges drives up the cost side of the equation and that is NOT included in the current cost/benefit analysis sets"...which is the point that Mr. Akridge simply tried to ignore.."more money wasted". However, the bigger point is that the City (as well as the people) do not want this nonsense. To Mr. Akridge...you really did not dissect anything I posted, and you can't because what I've stated is fact. And no...its fact....Propeller and all the proponents involved make it clear that they are in it for a buck, if not then why are they pushing so hard? No one gets into business for nothing. We are not stupid.
Ken Clark February 25, 2012 at 04:13 AM
Why is it that expansion proponents argue their “case” with opinion laden statements and/or incomplete facts? 1) Flights @ HJAIA have declined every year since '07. 2011 operations were less than in '04. Look it up in the FAA ATADS. 2) Noise from jets is exactly what I think and, more importantly, what the FAA aircraft noise data shows it is – loud. Look it up in FAA AC 36-3H & you’ll see regional jets and turboprops are usually louder than GA props on takeoff and almost always louder on approach. Maybe working next to PDK took its toll on your hearing? 3) The NTSB database lists 19 accidents at LZU since 1990. 5 of those accidents involved fatalities. Most of those fatalities have been within the last 4 years. Adding 29,000 flights a year (per Propeller, 80 flights a day) isn’t going to reduce the probability of accidents. 4) In the last 10 years home prices in 30043/45/46 have gone down by 23%, 25%, & 39% respectively according to Zillow. Adding 4 commercial flights/hr isn’t going to help. 5) None of the other airports considering privatization had incredible volumes of landings/takeoffs & a large metropolitan area that could support the use of the airport. Really? What about O’Hare (ORD) & Midway (MDW) or San Diego (SAN) & Brown (SDM)? MDW has been wavering for 6 years on privatization and is getting ready to submit a revised preliminary application. Is that success? I would say try again, but maybe give campaign management another try instead?
Floyd Akridge February 25, 2012 at 08:23 PM
Ken...Ken...Ken... (1) ...every year since '07. Lemme see...I seem to remember something happening beginning in '08...oh yeah...RECESSION. Regardless of annual volume change it is still an ENORMOUS amount. (2) ...louder than G.A. props. A gulfstream is louder than a Piper Cub or a Cessna 152? You actually NEEDED to look that one up? But they are still darn quiet...impressive actualy and no...working right next to PDK didn't affect my hearing...it just gave me actual experience. (3) I don't debate the decline of home prices but the figures you quote have NOTHING to do with an airport and hence are absolutely mute. (4) Thanks for proving my point re:volumes and large areas. I didn't need the help but appreciate it anyway. Midway is already a commercialized airport where Briscoe is not. Privatization failed at Midway on April 20, 2009 when financing for the deal/lease fell through. However...what was going on at the time? Recession...VERY tight lending standards...that says nothing about the value of privatization. Brown would have a VERY difficult time given it's proximity to the other airport and closeness to the border. It has no real opportunity of success because it has no real need to serve. Try campaign management again? Had two different opportunities in the last 4 years but as I said before...it's a personal sacrifice that I just can't make again. But thanks for your caring and support.
Floyd Akridge February 25, 2012 at 08:30 PM
Greg...I didn't dissect anything you posted because what you posted didn't address my points. I thought I made that clear. And I didn't ignore that court challenges. You make a proposal based on things you have in hand that you can calculate the costs for. Litigation is threatened all the time and doesn't happen. To include something for which may not happen and the costs are not predictable is simply stupid. No one gets into business for nothing. Wow...and your point is? Of course they want to make a profit. And the problem is?
North Georgia Weather February 25, 2012 at 08:33 PM
The problem is the likelyhood of them making a profit is extremely small based on all of the factors on the table and the taxpayers of Gwinnett will be left holding the bill. On top of that, and not that it matters to you, but I don't want any more air traffic over my house thank you.
M.K. OSBORNE February 25, 2012 at 08:40 PM
I may be wrong , but the Athens airport used to have commercial flights or may still have them . I remember 5-6 years ago looking it up because i did not want to go through Hartsfield .
Ken Clark February 26, 2012 at 01:51 AM
Floyd, Since you’re aware of the recession, the point is – a 2nd airport in Atlanta can’t be justified. Glad you knew about the recession tough! Sometimes I wonder about you commercialize-at-all-costs guys. Regional jets and regional turbo props are louder than GA props. You may not know this, but biz jets have been flying at LZU for a long time. That’s not the issue. Not sure why you bring them up. So, your experience carries more weight than the FAA data in 36-3H or in an INM? Wow, now I'm really "impressed". BTW, I worked 1 mile from HJAIA airport for several years and have been in aerospace and aviation engineering for almost 30 years. But I guess that doesn’t count as experience? If you take the same look in Zillow at other Gwinnett zipcodes, none of them have anywhere near the same decline in property values that the 3 closest zipcodes have (30043/45/36 = minus 23-39%). 30518 = -7%. 30096 = -13%. But I suppose that’s just a coincidence? Try to keep up on MDW. They are now considering revising the preliminary application - to be re-submitted or withdrawn by March 31 2012. Who cares if MDW is commercial? I wonder how much money Chicago has wasted trying to force privatization at MDW over the last 6 years? It doesn’t matter how “unique” the ATL/LZU situation is. Again, glad you knew about the recession – because it trumps any argument any commericlaization proponent can fabricate.
R++ One of the Famous Dacula Crew February 26, 2012 at 03:24 AM
"To include something for which may not happen and the costs are not predictable is simply stupid." But including all the unpredictable or unconfirmed positives makes for an informed decision? Conservatives don't consider or set up contingency plans for lawsuits in response to their actions? That's news to most of us, or maybe its really not, based on what we've seen from our county and why we see so many cost OVER-RUNS and settlement charges after the fact in recent years. Blog readers here can determine for themselves which business policy approach is stupid.
M.K. OSBORNE February 26, 2012 at 05:21 PM
Athens Ben Epps (AHN) Airport Examples of aircraft utilizing the airport include commercial (airline), general aviation, military, public safety, medical transp
Floyd Akridge February 26, 2012 at 10:03 PM
Ken...I guess economics isn't required to be in aerospace and aviation engineering for almost 30 years, eh? You quoted me figures you hoped would justify your position and I gave you a MUCH more likely cause. And despite what opinion you throw out a second airport in the Metro area can be justified. I brought up the issue of noise because you made the comparision between commercial jets and GA engines...a comparison that was off discussion and irrelevant. I didn't suggest my experience trumped every piece of data available and your suggestion is nothing but fabrication and does little to support your side. I suggest you take a look at Zillow as well...30017...2008 =220K...2011 (eoy) = 140K. That would be about 34%...WHOOOOOPS...better stick to aerospace engineering. fyi...30078, 30039 and 30052 show similar percentage declines (I discount 30052 as it crosses county lines. As explanation, I almost didn't respond about MDW because it's controlled by Chicago. I would take a bit of a pause before I applied anything in Chicago to Atlanta as gold. That's why I also mentioned San Diego and Brown field. Actually I've flown out of Brown (there's that dang experience thing again)...and Gillespie Field as well. Gillespie would be a much better choice for a 2nd airport but I do not feel that the volume at SD supports a 2nd airport. Who cares about commercialization? Huh? What? Nearly every post against is, in some aspect, about commercialization.
Floyd Akridge February 26, 2012 at 10:12 PM
R...I discount pretty much every post you make because you don't publically identify yourself. While I may disagree with other posters such as Kevin, Ken and Sabrina they have done so....to their credit.
Ken Clark February 27, 2012 at 12:30 AM
Floyd, Your guess would be wrong about my engineering economics experience. Micro, macro, engineering economy, analysis of financial data/accounting, etc. are part of my engineering background. The projects I’ve implemented over the years require a payback analysis. But if you think the 10 year property value data for 30043/5/6 shown above is weak, then you’ll love Propellernomics. In July 2011 they said Lawrenceville’s property values had declined by 3% in 10 years. No missing decimals here – three percent. A couple of months ago they added another website presentation. Now they say properties near Briscoe field have gone down 10% in the last 10 years. Both presentations are still at their website. If they can’t get that right, how can they get an airport right? Your 4 year zip data was nicely cherry-picked (just like Propeller does with noise, property values, flight schedules), but it won’t compare to 4 year data for 43/5/6 zips. If citizens were allowed access to Propeller’s proposal, I’m pretty sure it would fail most every litmus test – including economic scrutiny. If you think a comparison of commercial jets & GA engines is irrelevant, then perhaps you may want to make sure you’re on the right thread. If this thread were limited to pure privatization at LZU, I wouldn’t be on this thread & I suspect neither would you. I don’t care about Chicago. I live in Gwinnett County & certainly care about commercialization of LZU.
R++ One of the Famous Dacula Crew February 27, 2012 at 03:41 AM
Floyd - I use a pen name of sorts by choice, I present readily available facts and observations others can see or find for themselves, once they are made aware that they may need to look deeper. Readers can make their own decisions based on newsprint, county meetings, court records etc. as to accuracy. I have no need for GOOGLE street cred as I'm not a columnist nor do I need the notoriety for LinkedIn, future political campaigning or political favors. Its all about the message and the issue at hand, not the messenger. I'll sit in the company of Benjamin Franklin and Samuel Clemens, nuff said on that. Now in Debate 201 looking to discredit by any means possible in an attempt to deflect the message content gets repetitive. If statements are incorrect, please contest a point or 2. I've seen pages of challenges on this airport issue and the management process that has been used to get where we are today. Those that have presented the opposition view have been more credible.Ken's post above is one example, while I disagree with your position, but I don't spend a great of time continually attempting to comment on the intelligence of proponents, because if that's my best and most relied upon approach, I don't have much of a real case, but a lot of promises and projections. HOPE is great, but not at the very real chance the taxpayers will be stuck should Propeller pull out in year three due to bankruptcy or carrier loss.
R++ One of the Famous Dacula Crew February 27, 2012 at 03:45 AM
Perhaps there would have been more proposals to look over if a realistic response table of 120,180 or even 270 days had been used. The short window combined with Propeller's agent assisting in the original FAA submission is a point of concern.
Floyd Akridge February 28, 2012 at 08:43 AM
"""R"""...feel free to use a pen name if you wish but I personally discount the arguments of those who hide their identity. You'll notice that I posted here and never hid my identity. Those with whom I have disagreed with here have also done so to their credit and I applaud them for doing so. It certainly is your choice of course which I fully respect...but the amount of credibility I give to those who do is my choice.
Gary Fox February 28, 2012 at 12:49 PM
Floyd, your posts re: noise seemed skewed to me. On any given morning @ 7:00 a.m. +/- go to the Red Barn & get yourself a biscuit & coffee - then go to any parking lot in the 400 block of Buford Dr. As you enjoy your breakfast, try making a cell phone call as the "hot rod" jets blast out of the airport. Those pilots have the stick jammed up the rabbit's a__ & the noise is close to unbearable.

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